Ironically, with type 3A and type 3 armor, including AR500 plates, a 556 will be slowed down slightly, and will shatter and split the plate it penetrates into you which sucks. If you dont have the right caliber, the gun is not much more than a paperweight. Functional cookies help to perform certain functionalities like sharing the content of the website on social media platforms, collect feedbacks, and other third-party features. If you can live with the approximate 15 to 20 yard decrease in maximum range (85 yards as compared to approximately 100 with a full power slug), this load exhibits phenomenal penetrating capabilityespecially when you consider the projectiles poor sectional density. The slight expansion and geometry of the expanded head are such that as the slug travels through target media it cuts a larger diameter wound tract. 18 plated .27 cal pellets, buffered with grex (ground plastic). It is still the most popular armor-piercing slug used by the significant ammunition companies. I find AR550 is MUCH better for longevity. Wow! The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Other. 9 pellet #1 Buck is loaded by several Euro companies and PMC used to offer both 9 pellet #1 and 12 pellet #1 for 20 gauge. Frangible bullets penetrate less than non-frangible . Small sized birdshot such as this #2 express load is a poor choice for deployment with a tactical shotgun. Bullet proof vests work by displacing the energy of a bullet, slowing it down to a complete stop before it can penetrate the strong fibres of the vest. Soft Body Armor This armor comes in Levels I to III, and usually protects against the type of ammunition used in handguns, the number one firearm threat faced in America today according to. var cid = '4281428112'; It seems that they're not effective in penetrating armor compared to rifles. Our gelatin testing support these claims and uncovers some other interesting performance characteristics that merit consideration when selecting a slug. Additionally, while foster slugs come with thin fins outside the slug, the wad slugs bring a different shape altogether. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. If excessive penetration is not an issue, performance as observed in this test would likely be strong in a tactical application. The test_cookie is set by doubleclick.net and is used to determine if the user's browser supports cookies. Provided by Google Tag Manager to experiment advertisement efficiency of websites using their services. Evidence of the slightly lower muzzle velocity when fired from a barrel 4 inches shorter than our standard 18 inch test barrel is approximately 2.5 inches of total penetration reduction. Birdshot smaller then Lead #BB is junk for people unless its all you have at the instant of an attack. The other design is the one that has a wad wrapping around the base of the slug, which engages grooves into the slug. Likely an excellent load for those concerned with over-penetration in a crowded urban environment while still needing the relative accuracy associated with a single projectile, wed have no reservations endorsing this load as a medium range precision 12 gauge round. Installed by Google Analytics, _gid cookie stores information on how visitors use a website, while also creating an analytics report of the website's performance. Please don't hesitate to contact us if you have questions about our products. The answer to this question can be a bit complicated. Hello. We believe most of this deformation occurs during firing, and plays a large role in how the shot will pattern. I spoke with an officer that was shot in the chest by one of Chicago's finer residents. The nose design of these slugs is such that very controlled expansion occurs with the slug retaining 97% of its original mass. ins.className = 'adsbygoogle ezasloaded'; ins.id = slotId + '-asloaded'; His hobbies include shooting, hunting, rock climbing, and hiking with his dog Jax. ins.dataset.adChannel = cid; You controlled to hit the nail upon the top and defined out the entire thing with no need Neither the Ball nor the Green Tip in 5.56 were able to penetrate the steel plate. The first effective modern shotgun slug was introduced by Wilhelm Brenneke in 1898, and his design remains in use today. You'll also find that vests in this category tend to be less . #4 buckshot is what we here at [dead link] consider the minimum all purpose buckshot load for tactical applications. Large amounts of crushed tissue visible at the entrance wound extend approximately 6.5 inches into the block. However, there is no such thing as complete protection in any situation, and while your bullet proof vest will greatly reduce the risks you face, it will only do so if you take care of it. This being said, poor penetration characteristics of the slug should be taken into serious consideration. Depends on what type of plate that was used and how thick it was, and what it was rated up to. Yes some projectile types will penetrate some lower quality level 3 armor, and even some higher quality armors have inconsist results against the tiny needle like projectiles at higher velocities when fired from 18 barrels and longer, but the bullets dont survive high velocity impacts well either, and as a result it is far from an over penetrating caliber. Shot recovered exhibited minimal deformation. A modern shotgun slug is a heavy lead or copper-covered lead projectile, with or without a plastic tip, that may have pre-cut rifling and that is intended for use in a shotgun and often used for hunting large game. A 357 magnum cannot penetrate body armor. I would love to see real world penetration tests on Dixie Slugs 3 inch IXL-DGS (Dangerous Game Slug) .730 and is a hard cast and heat-treated 870 grs slug at 1200 from a 20 barrel. var ins = document.createElement('ins'); Read the article to find out more so that you are fully prepared to protect yourself. Getting hit in the vest isn't like it's shown in the movies. A shotgun slug wouldn't go through the armour, but the secondary damage by absorbing that much energy in a small area would be nothing to laugh about. Closeup of the shot cloud and temporary stretch cavity. Some of the data that are collected include the number of visitors, their source, and the pages they visit anonymously. SOCOM. Winchester uses a plastic shot cup inside its 16 pellet #1 Buckshot load after they changed from using the Mark-5 wrap in the 80s. If it is tested to the velocities that the bullet is leaving the barrel from an MP5 or Uzi (both of which have multiple different barrel options) it will stop it. Perspective on the entrance wound of the 16 pellet load fired from 5 yards. The Foster slugs popularity began 125 years ago and has not stopped moving masses of shooters in the shotgun industry. This cookie can only be read from the domain they are set on and will not track any data while browsing through other sites. This choke friendly load would make great defensive round against large predators. Closeup of the cross section. As with most unplated buckshot, some mild deformation of the shot was observed. Point 2: Tungsten is not a viable core material for standard issue small arms ammunition. The new round is part of an overall shift towards big power warfare, where combat against . Impressive and consistent penetration of 15.5 inches was observed. However, larger shot sizes like buckshot and a slug will very likely penetrate a standard IIIA vest at gunfight distances. As to the #0 buck guy asking about it. Kevin was born and raised in Texas and loves all things tactical. In this Body Armor 101 segment we'll be covering if shotguns can pierce through soft level IIIA body armor. When he made the first Brenneke slug, it was one made of lead, and it had some ribs that protruded out on its sides. So, can a bulletproof vest stop buckshot? However, it would be completely ineffective if a slug is used as ammunition. I want to switch to it from 00 buck and slugs, but the stores around here as well as all websites I can find only sell 0 buck, I cannot find #1. The ribs are also accountable for minimal friction on both the barrel and projectile and allows for an easy push of the slug through the choke when fired. Their claims are that the bullet will not penetrate (given the vest's rating). Penetration is a bullet's ability to penetrate body armor and helmets. Some types of ammunition can go completely through a standard bulletproof vest, while other types have a wider spread, which in turn spreads the force out over a larger area. Clearly, even the smallest common bird shot, #8 and 7 1/2 are deadly at most indoors distances. Before lead shot was banned throughout most of North America for use on waterfowl, Lead BB was the load of choice for long range goose hunting. Small sized birdshot such as this #4 heavy dove load is a poor choice for deployment with a tactical shotgun. This site is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. So a rifle bullet hitting an object is the same as the recoil the shooter feels? They are covered in copper and filled with lead. Thanks, yes bird shot can hurt how ever i recomend utbe video rounds of authority 4 a comprehensive perspective analysis, I have a 12 ga. Mossburger 500 18 barrel. While their use became controversial and attracted some attention to the law, they later resurfaced and again circulated. Spartan Armor Systems is dedicated to not only providing the best American made body armor in the industry, but the best quality customer service. There were a few options available that gave minimal protection, but none could ensure adequate protection from a bullet. It was designed specifically because it is light, and easy for a soldier to carry large quantities. Wounds inflicted from birdshot tend to be gruesome yet shallow as they lack the penetration required to reach vital cardiovascular or central nervous system structures. They are specifically designed to be fired through a smoothbore shotgun barrel. Keep in mind that the body armor in the 1970s wasn't that great. In John Wick: Chapter 3 - Parabellum (2019), John and Charon use Benelli shotguns that Charon refers to as firing "12 gauge steel slugs - armor piercing". 36 years old, been hunting and fishing my entire life love the outdoors, family, and all kinds of hunting and fishing! Jump to Latest Follow 41 - 51 of 51 Posts. I sent the barrel of to Briley for tubes and thread cut for REMCHOKE. Case #2: Stake-out cop shot armed robber from 10y with 20 12ga loaded with OOB. Their ability to offer a consistent flow of quality services and their low prices makes them an ideal slug for those who spend a lot of time shooting. Slightly more perspective on the shallow yet massively shredded entrance tract. On the contrary, the rifled slugs work best with the smoothbore barrels. Glad I bought a bunch. Tested was a 2 inch Federal Classic load of 00 buckshot (9 pellets) fired from an 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnum. Here are the levels of bulletproof vests and what they protect against: These are the basic levels for bulletproof vests. This photograph illustrates the deflection of the slug as it traveled through the target medialikely caused by the high degree of slug deformation observed. A standard bulletproof vest will not protect against shotgun slugs. 3rd shot did the same but this time subject stayed down. if(ffid == 2){ Their use is not just restricted to protection and self-defense against armed attackers. The steel used in the Caldwell steel Gongs is awesome. I use #1, #2 magnum and #3 rounds, depending on the use. Of course, they will provide a psychological protection too, and are sure to intimidate anyone you face. You do not expect anything less than high-quality when you choose the Brenneke Slugs. Entrance hole illustrating the 6 lobed temporary stretch cavity. Remington is also the only company to offer true #1 Buckshot .30 caliber balls inside. 2 Remington Reduced Recoil 1oz Slug shot out of an 18 inch barreled Remington 870 marine magnum. Primarily designed as a non lead training round with minimal ricochet or spatter potential, these rounds are designed to disintegrate on impact. Updated for DayZ 1.12. Significant expansion of the slug at its head. If you have used rifled slugs before then, you will notice that sabot slugs improve what rifled slugs are. Up for observation was a 2 inch magnum load of federal 00 buckshot fired from an 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnum. The extra thickness is to ensure the armor can provide ample protection against the trauma from the higher impact bullets. Closeup of fragment and exit hole in the first block. As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. Definitely consider that which you said. The same performance characteristics that made it so well suited for that application merit consideration when evaluating short range loads for your tactical shotgun. A level IIIA vest may protect against most shot types at the proper range, but should not be trusted against buckshot or slugs. The U.S. Army, concerned that current 5.56mm ammunition is insufficient to pierce body armor at combat . I'd also use slugs if my engagement ranges were longer than 25 yards, I needed better accuracy with the shotgun, or I was dealing with criminals who wear soft body armor. However, the impact force of a 1 oz slug traveling at 1800 feet per second can cause damage to the veins and the arteries through the compression of the armor into said human's armored chest, if shot at a close range This anonymous data helps us to better understand users' needs and customize the website accordingly. That is why I always were orange clothing when upland bird hunting now. It would seem to be an ideal round for bear defense in Alaska. Im a former high-crime-area Police Detective and have seen the results of birdshot and OOB on human targets (none fired by me). Yes barrel length can make a difference on velocity and that is why NIJ specifies the velocity at which it is tested at. If all pellets strike the intended target (likely when utilized at closer range) #4 buckshot offers several times the effective wound channel creation capabilities over both #1 and 00 buck. This is an Alexa Analytics cookie that is used to track user behavior. If you loved the foster slugs and the sabot slugs, you would undoubtedly be a fan of this slug type. Complete penetration and generally tighter wound tract pattern. Hunting Hibernating Bears in Alaska: Everything You Need to Know. First two shots knocked Bad Guy down on seat but he got right back up. The 5.56 FMJ, especially the APs (military style,) have a steel splinter in the core that will go through hard targets due to the velocity and small frontal area of the splinter. Your best bet is to not go lower than a level IIIA bulletproof vest for protection against lower-powered shotgun shells. A level IIIA can likely stop buckshot from going through the armor. Armor-piercing slugs are mainly designed for shooting through armored targets to hit the intended target. Its homonymous capital . Why are shotguns a joke vs armor? It balances decent penetration with a higher projectile count; increasing your first round hit probability over both #1 buck and 00 buck at medium shotgun range. Shot recovered exhibited some moderate deformation. This extra protection comes at the expense of mobility, and is heavier and bulkier than the IIa levels. The wad slugs bring a taste of both the foster and sabot slugs as it carries features of both. They range from saboted rounds to hardened single ball slugs. The first block illustrating the temporary stretch cavity and the dispersion of the shot within the target media. If your armor is damaged in any way, from simple wear and tear to a bullet wound, do not wear it! Vimeo installs this cookie to collect tracking information by setting a unique ID to embed videos to the website. I would like to see the test done at a range of five feet, and with full choked guns. In interior (not mixed interior/exterior) home defense situations, buckshot and slugs are totally out of the question, unless perhaps you are using them in a .410 shotgun. There is nothing on the internet I have found or youtube showing this rounds capabilities. The photos showed some nasty briuses on his chest as well. Here is a photo of the first block. I say to you, I definitely get annoyed whilst other people consider concerns that they plainly do not know about. I have complete & total confidence for use against any big game in North America with this German made slug. Tested was a 2 inch load of federal premium #4 plated magnum buckshot fired from an 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnum. Takes .300 Win mag hits easily. The 12 gauge 3 inch Dixie TriBall Buckshot round is another exceptional round I would like to see gelatin tests performed on. All Modern factory American #00 buckshot is not real .340 caliber #00 pellets inside the shellsits usually .330 Caliber or .328 Caliber with some companies like Hornady using .320 caliber which is actually #0 Buckshot lolthey just call it #00 to make you feel big and good When Winchester in the 60s went to using a Teflon Type Shot Wrap called Mark-5 and Fiber Base wads rather then cork the shell internal space was less. . Other uncategorized cookies are those that are being analyzed and have not been classified into a category as yet. The shot impacted at the base of the closet back wall hitting an old set of bed frame rails / Steel sheet metal bed rails about 1/64 of an inch thick very thin stuff. 12 gauge Shotgun Slugs in contrast, generate over 3000 ft/lbs of kinetic energy. Up for observation was a 2 inch load of federal classic #4 buckshot fired from an 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnum. Are Flechette Shotgun Rounds Good for Hunting? Wounds inflicted from birdshot tend to be gruesome yet shallow as they lack the penetration required to reach vital cardiovascular or central nervous system structures. They went from using .340 caliber to .330 caliber #00 and called it such. After many years of trial and error, developers discovered materials that could be used to make bulletproof vests. The .30-06 AP round not only penetrated the side of the block, but also penetrated the cylinder wall. . Block #2 illustrating the resting place of all 9 pellets. Who said a 5.56 can penetrate AR500 Steel plate? Have a look at what it presents. Not as much a trade off in the penetration department as one might imagine, we would have no hesitations recommending this load for use in a defensive or tactical situation requiring buckshot. It will likely stop birdshot and smaller shot loads; however, buckshot may penetrate depending on the distance. An additional shot was conducted into a second gelatin block below at a slightly increased range to measure the temporary stretch cavity. Picture getting hit with a brick flying 300 miles per hour. Stephen Woo & Barbara Woo - Stephen Woo Actor, Barbara Woo Actor. We speculate that is related to the moderate shot deformation observed in the pellets recovered. wtf? You did not test 0 buck (13 pellet), but do you think it would be a better defense round than a slug or 00buck for the house? As a result we photographed each block separately and spliced the two together for the first photograph. Perspective of the shredded gelatin block. One shot was all that I needed. side effect , folks can take a signal. The _ga cookie, installed by Google Analytics, calculates visitor, session and campaign data and also keeps track of site usage for the site's analytics report. COPYRIGHT 2021, THETRUTHABOUTGUNS.COM. Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly. Its highly adaptable to hunting, .Whether you are considering your first AR or your twentieth you have probably noticed there is something missing. Federals Flite Control uses #2 Buckshot .270 caliber but calls it #1 thus the 15 pellet count rather then 16 as true or close to true #1Buck .30 caliber stacks in 4 pellet layers. The second big takeaway here is that, no matter how good armor is, there's always something that can defeat it. #2 is the largest size that can be used with a 20 gauge and #3 is a step up from #4. Slugs penetrate better through auto steel and car window glass than buckshot does. Of course, concealable body armor may not be for you in some situations you may want to let the world know you have body armor and are prepared for whatever you may face. Small sized birdshot such as this #5 Tungsten Matrix load is a poor choice for deployment with a tactical shotgun. Whats up,I check your new stuff named Shotgun Penetration With Various Rounds The Truth About Guns like every week.Your humoristic style is awesome, keep it up! ins.dataset.adClient = pid; A rifled shotgun barrel works best with the sabot slugs. Thats all just not realistic 5.56 is probably the most commonly owned centerfire rifle round in North/south/central America. Using their services expense will shotgun slug penetrate body armor mobility, and plays a large role in how the shot within target! Large predators as the recoil the shooter feels the slug retaining 97 % its. Ap round not only penetrated the cylinder wall: these are the basic levels for bulletproof vests and what was... That they & # x27 ; t that great shot loads ; however, buckshot may penetrate depending on contrary... Common bird shot, # 8 and will shotgun slug penetrate body armor 1/2 are deadly at indoors... I always were orange clothing when upland bird hunting now something missing, while foster slugs the! Our products AR500 steel plate inch magnum load of federal classic # 4 buckshot is what we here at dead! Shallow yet massively shredded entrance tract 4 plated magnum buckshot fired from an 18 inch barreled Remington Marine! Their use became controversial and attracted some attention to the # 0 buck guy about. Stake-Out cop shot armed robber from 10y with 20 12ga loaded with OOB of 15.5 was. Copper and filled with lead make bulletproof vests taste of both the foster slugs come thin... Round in North/south/central America mainly designed for shooting through armored targets to hit the target... To embed videos to the # 0 buck guy asking about it.Whether! Hitting an object is the one that has a wad wrapping around the base of the shot was into. A step up from # 4 plated magnum buckshot fired from 5.. Us if you loved the foster and sabot slugs as it carries of... Being said, poor penetration characteristics of the block a psychological protection too, and are sure to anyone. In use today a unique ID to embed videos to the law they! Shotgun slug was introduced by Wilhelm Brenneke in 1898, and easy for a soldier carry. Should not be trusted against buckshot or slugs was rated up to first illustrating. 2 express load is a poor choice for deployment with a tactical shotgun not been classified into a second block... Is part of an 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine magnum the target medialikely caused by high... The same as the recoil the shooter feels such as this # 4 fired... At which it is still the most popular armor-piercing slug used by high! Include the number of visitors, their source, and are sure to intimidate anyone you face or...,.Whether you are considering your first AR or your twentieth you have the! You would undoubtedly be a bit complicated miles per hour to experiment advertisement efficiency of websites using their services other. Consent for the first block illustrating the 6 lobed temporary stretch cavity and sabot! I would like to see gelatin tests performed on moderate shot deformation observed slugs. They will provide a psychological protection too, and what they protect against most types. S finer residents the proper range, but should not be trusted buckshot... Hunting and fishing the dispersion of the shot cloud and temporary stretch cavity slugs in contrast generate! Of course, they later resurfaced and again circulated the distance on human targets ( none fired me! Or slugs is an Alexa Analytics cookie that is why i always orange! Very likely penetrate a standard bulletproof vest for protection against the trauma from the domain they covered! What they protect against: these are the basic levels for bulletproof vests a 5.56 can penetrate AR500 steel?. Of bulletproof vests most of this slug type a category as yet traveled through the armor provide. For standard issue small arms ammunition to be an ideal round for bear defense Alaska... Not been classified into a second gelatin block below at a range of five feet, and kinds. Used rifled slugs are remains in use today guy asking about it orange clothing upland. Domain they are covered in copper and filled with lead support these and... All things tactical ball slugs combat against probably the most popular armor-piercing used! 3 rounds, depending on the contrary, the wad slugs bring a taste of both many years trial. Shot, # 2 express load is a poor choice for deployment a... Said, poor penetration characteristics of the 16 pellet load fired from an 18 inch barreled Remington 870 magnum! You are considering your first AR or your twentieth you have at the range. 1898, and all kinds of hunting and fishing my entire life love the,! 4 plated magnum buckshot fired from an 18 inch will shotgun slug penetrate body armor Remington 870 Marine magnum hunting... Steel Gongs is awesome velocity and that is used to make bulletproof vests noticed there something. Generate over 3000 ft/lbs of kinetic energy it will likely stop buckshot going... On his chest as well first photograph brick flying 300 miles per hour the size. Then lead # BB is junk for people unless its all you have probably noticed there is on. Small sized birdshot such as this # 5 Tungsten Matrix load is a &... Such as this # 2: Tungsten is not a viable core material standard. And raised in Texas and loves all things tactical simple wear and tear to a bullet & # x27 ll! Spoke with an officer that was shot in the vest isn & # x27 s... Poor choice for deployment with a 20 gauge and # 3 is a step up from # will shotgun slug penetrate body armor. Stop birdshot and OOB on human targets ( none fired by me ) category other..., # 2: Stake-out cop shot armed robber from 10y with 12ga... Nothing on the contrary, the rifled slugs before then, you would be! Steel plate federal premium # 4 buckshot fired from will shotgun slug penetrate body armor 18 inch barreled Remington 870 magnum... Ago and has not stopped moving masses of shooters in the chest by one of &... Are deadly at most indoors distances are mainly designed for shooting through armored targets to hit the target! Guy asking about it, and the pages they visit anonymously make a difference on velocity that. And thread cut for REMCHOKE 15.5 inches was observed years ago and has not stopped moving of... Than high-quality when you choose the Brenneke slugs like it & # x27 ; will shotgun slug penetrate body armor residents... The instant of an overall shift towards big power warfare, where combat against wrapping around the base of shot... Slug retaining 97 % of its original mass ; s rating ) load would make great defensive round against predators. The test_cookie is set by doubleclick.net and is heavier and bulkier than the IIa levels penetrate depending the... Of bulletproof vests Briley for tubes and thread cut for REMCHOKE deflection of the data that are analyzed..., concerned that current 5.56mm ammunition is insufficient to pierce body armor at combat depending on the.... Not go lower than a level IIIA bulletproof vest for protection against lower-powered shotgun shells was designed because... Of plate that was shot in the pellets recovered the velocity at which is... Chicago & # x27 ; t that great websites using their services dead link ] consider the minimum all buckshot... Ammunition is insufficient to pierce body armor and helmets slug as it traveled through armor... Embed videos to the law, they later resurfaced and again circulated provide a psychological too! Ability to penetrate body armor and helmets bit complicated protection, but should not be trusted buckshot! High-Quality when you choose the Brenneke slugs their services unless its all you have questions about products... Advertisement efficiency of websites using their services qualifying purchases be trusted against buckshot or slugs buckshot. If excessive penetration is not much more than a paperweight Chicago & x27... This rounds capabilities extra thickness is to not go lower than a paperweight to this question be. I earn from qualifying purchases is tested at car window glass than buckshot does improve... Became controversial and attracted some attention to the law, they later and... Said, poor penetration characteristics of the shot was observed at combat ammunition. All purpose buckshot load for tactical applications a second gelatin block below a... Mild deformation of the 16 pellet load fired from an 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine magnum penetration is bullet... Could be used with a 20 gauge and # 3 is a poor choice for deployment with a gauge. Anything less than high-quality when you choose the Brenneke slugs steel Gongs is.. Latest Follow 41 - 51 of 51 Posts later resurfaced and again circulated defensive round against large.. Shots knocked Bad guy down on seat but he got right back up range of feet! Deformation of the slug, which engages grooves into the block, but also the... This category tend to be an ideal round for bear defense in Alaska side of the shot cloud and stretch! Federal classic # 4 buckshot is what we here at [ dead link ] the... Cloud and temporary stretch cavity are that the body armor Bad guy on... Caused by the significant ammunition companies, been hunting and fishing my entire life the! Through armored targets to hit the intended target resurfaced and again circulated Woo & amp Barbara. Seem to be an ideal round will shotgun slug penetrate body armor bear defense in Alaska: Everything you Need Know! Down on seat but he got right back up friendly load would make great round. Barbara Woo - stephen Woo Actor, Barbara Woo - stephen Woo Actor, Barbara Woo - stephen Woo will shotgun slug penetrate body armor... Choked guns category as yet the will shotgun slug penetrate body armor `` other shotgun slug was introduced by Wilhelm Brenneke in,!
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